Forum posts to 'General Discussion'

Re: Mature Mode: Perma-Death and More

MrTheFalcon — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 03:50:53 +0000

Cool ideas.

Here are the rules I use...

Retreat: Your hero may flee before combat starts, if it looks like he may lose. Make a note of the entry, and return to the map. (This covers the moments where you realize that you're in over your head.)

Knocked-out: If your hero loses a combat, all his consumable items are destroyed. Make a note of the entry, and return to the map. (This adds consequence to failure, but not so much that your hero is gimped. -It also shows that your hero gave it his all by using every consumable.)

Legendary monsters exception: The hero may retreat from a legendary monster. But if your hero enters combat and is defeated, he is knocked-out and may not attempt to defeat the same legendary monster again. (This makes legendary monsters a high-stakes affair where winning grants your hero an exciting reward.)

Other exceptions: If the entry specifies that quest is over when the hero is defeated, then the hero cannot retreat. (Some quests are over if a combat is lost. Retreat undermines the spirit of the rules in this case.)

These rules have increased the tension for me, and added an element of strategy where I need to evaluate my opponent before committing to combat.

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Re: Mature Mode: Perma-Death and More

Permafrost — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 18:19:47 +0000

Other mages career abilities come from their talisman.

pyro = core of flame
icelock = heart of winter
necro = bone fetish
medic = lady of the lamp (not sure if name right???)

Alchemist can equip different talismans with abilities without losing their special career abilities. This means they get one more ability than other mages do

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Re: Mature Mode: Perma-Death and More

Legion — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 13:47:57 +0000

Eh? How do alechemists get extra talisman?

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Re: Mature Mode: Perma-Death and More

xenith — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 12:23:37 +0000

alchemist also gets an extra talisman ability that other mages don't have

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Re: Mature Mode: Perma-Death and More

myrrth — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:29:22 +0000

---Take pickpocket or alchemist and you'll be richer but they aren't great end game careers---

I was thinking about this last night. I am playing a rogue in Act 2 of the story (warrior happily retired at end of Act 3) and have got the pickpocket career. It doesn't seem that great as there are no damage ablilities, but loot master....... ? Couldn't that be awesome in Act 3 if you gett to pick from any rewards for your class? I also thinking how much gold you could end up with. That could buy most of waldo's equipment. I might give this a try

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Re: Mature Mode: Perma-Death and More

Da Boss — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:16:38 +0000

An interesting discussion! I'll be honest and say that, no - there was never really a moment where I thought of introducing a 'death punishment' or durability option. I want the game to be as instantly accessible to as many players of different ages and experience as I could. To add extra rules would have made it too convoluted.

Balancing the game was an incredibly difficult and time-consuming task; to have done that and also allowed for a durability/weapon breakage system would have been almost impossible. In games like World of Warcraft, if an item needs repairing and you can't afford it, you can swap it for another. In DestinyQuest, what you are equipped with is all that you have. As some other players have pointed out, if you were to lose one or two items then the game would quickly become unplayable.

So that is why the death system is what it is. There is a penalty, in that you can't continue the quest you were on and you lose your health potions and other items you used. The bonus is that you learn from your mistakes and get to try again, rather than starting over.

But I am 100% behind players developing and playing with their own rules. I'm flattered that players are passionate enough about the game to want to do that. I'd be interested to know how some of these rules pan out through Act 2 and Act 3 of the book.

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Re: Mature Mode: Perma-Death and More

Stabby — Wed, 16 Mar 2011 18:21:39 +0000

I thought i would add my thoughts to this thread (I'm bored and waiting for my dinner to cook basically). I like the equipment repair idea as the game feels WoW anyway then it wouldn't feel too out of place. Your repair cost calculation isn't bad either. Most weapons in act3 have +2 speed and +4 brawn or magic. That would be 6 + 10 for the ability (16) and then multiply by 10 (160g). Cool. But I can see a couple of problems with this system, coming from having played through it with my rogue.

1) gold is useful later for potions and mushrooms (i didn't use much of the latter, but they seem popular with other builds). In some of the longer quests and boss fights it helps to have some healing. No matter how well equipped you are, death is always a possibility. You can roll poorly and lose an easy fight.
2) if you have problems in act1 and act2 and spend gold on repairs then you won't have gold that you need later. Take pickpocket or alchemist and you'll be richer but they aren't great end game careers. That is my opinion.
3) you will change equipment alot. I could see myself spending 100g on repairing a crucial item and then five minutes later finding a better replacement item. That would be very frustrating.

It would be interesting to know if Michael thought about these kind of ideas when developing the book. I can see problems which probably explain why the system was streamlined into what it is now.

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Re: Mature Mode: Perma-Death and More

Apocryphim — Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:38:51 +0000

Thanks for the great feedback and ideas. I can see how some of my original suggestions would need tweaking, especially in the later acts which I haven't experienced yet. Much like D&D, I can see that in later levels, the loss of equipment is pretty much a fate as bad as death. Since this game is very much influced by WoW, according to the interview with the author... perhaps another WoW-influenced mechanic may help balance out the proposed equipment breakage rule: Equipment Repair.

Equipment Repair: When your _________ broke, so did your confidence. Time to consult a professional. This is one-of-a-kind equipment that is going to require serious skills and components to repair, so it won't be cheap. Add the sum of numerical values for Speed, Brawn, Magic, and Armor attributes of the equipment you wish to repair. Add an additional value of 10 for each Ability assigned to the equipment. Take this sum and multiply it by 10. The grand total is your repair bill, in Gold Coins, to restore this equipment to working condition.

That means that anything with an ability is going to cost at least 50 gold to repair... expensive in the early game, but probably worth the expense later on. Since I don't yet know what kind of wage a hero is likely to earn later on, the above values may need to be adjusted.

If you are thinking about playing the late game in hardcore mode with Perma-Death instead of (or in addition to) weapon breakage and repair, perhaps another alternate rule would be in order: Orb of Recall. Very Diablo-esque.

Orb of Recall: Once you become a Sthuper Sthpecial Hero wandering in the very dangerous places (at least Chapter 2), considering investing in this staple of professional heroes at your local retailer. 250 gold suggested manufacturer price, comes pre-filled to capacity with 1 charge. Recharges cost 100 gold. Usage: In an emergency, simply touch your Orb of Recall and tap your heels together 3 times (or wish *really* hard, in case you can't move)... you will be immediately transported back to the Map. Your Orb of Recall no longer has a charge and must be refilled before using again. Once used, a personal-use portal will remain open on the Map for your Hero(only) to transport back to the location you recently left. This personal-use portal will close immediately after being used.

Again... any thoughts are welcome. Take it easy ~ Apocryphim

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Re: Mature Mode: Perma-Death and More

GoneMad222 — Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:15:00 +0000

This is a great idea. i just wrote in the RuleFaq-Forum that i will play some kind of "advanced" game were i loose items in any way to make the game more exciting - otherwise dying would only be a possiblility to fully heal up during a quest --> no need for healing potions - and i could try a hard monster whose stats are fare better for lets say 20 times as long as i have luck and win - and get good loot very early in the game - but of course that would only be tactic gaming but no fun - i need a bit of a feeling that dying is a bad thing.
I love your Item-Breakage idea but maybe it is really too hard later in the game - depends on how easy you can die - i will see.
bernd

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Re: Mature Mode: Perma-Death and More

StarScream — Thu, 10 Mar 2011 17:37:37 +0000

There are quests where you can "die" and its game over for that quest. Like the counts ball and a couple of the Act 3 ones. They were my favourite ones, incidentally!

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Re: Mature Mode: Perma-Death and More

xenith — Thu, 10 Mar 2011 17:04:13 +0000

I never found the immortal thing that annoying. I used to cheat in the old fighting fantasy books anyway when I died and couldn't be bothered to start over. This is the first gamebook I actually played properly till the end. That's a special achievement for me. At least he makes the effort of explaining it all in the story. Its part of your character.

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Re: Mature Mode: Perma-Death and More

Blazzor — Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:40:39 +0000

i was thinking about trying hardcore mode for my next hero like diablo. but perma death would be painful(no kiddin) later in the book cos you can die so easily to the legendarys if you underprepared. i like the rolling and using speed to escape. thats a good one and would work. losing equipment would really suck and later in act2 and 3 then would never work, you need the best items to stay competitive

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Mature Mode: Perma-Death and More

Apocryphim — Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:33:54 +0000

Wilf the Sexy Wizard, my first character, has managed to, against all odds, survive his first evening of DQ... but I'm sure that won't surprise anybody - heroes don't (really) die.

Or do they...?

I can understand why the rules were written this way... kids /= ♥ consequences. Everyone likes a "Win Button", right? Of course not... some of us enjoy the sense of accomplishment and reward that comes from braving the odds, but making a tactical retreat when life (literally) depends on it.

So, I introduced a few mechanics into my gameplay last night: Escape and (Permanent) Death.

If you know the odds are stacked, or the dice just haven't worked in your favour, it might be time to get out of harm's way and finish the job another time. Wilf the Sexy Wizard was faced with this situation when, after a hard-fought battle that left him the apparent victor but nearly unconscious, his foe transformed into a vicious were-rat and resumed the attack. By the rules-as-written, I was faced with possible "death", at which point I would've transported to the map, miraculously regained full health, and been allowed to go straight back to battle. That sounded too easy-mode for me, so I upped the stakes slightly by deciding that I could: 1.) Press the attack against all odds, and probably die (permanently) in the process. 2.) Attempt to escape... failure might have drastic consequences.

Escape works like this: Roll 2 dice and add your speed. Roll 2 dice for each of your opponents and add their speed respectively. Any abilities, such as "webbed", that you can be used to affect the speed of your hero or opponents will apply against all foes in an escape attempt. If your total exceeds that of your opponent(s), you flee to the map and are allowed recovery. Any ties between your hero and opponent(s) result in a new combat round. A total lower than that of the opponent(s) results in an attack by all opponents with a higher result.

Perma-Death works like this: If you are killed, you... DIE! Roll up a new hero and start again.

I have thought of a few optional additions to Perma-Death that are a bit more of a compromise:

Miraculous Recovey: Upon death, roll 2d6. On a result of 10 or greater, you were simply knocked unconscious and left for dead. You may recover and resume play from the map. See optional rule: Equipment Breakage. On a result of 9 or less... you're worm food, or worse.

Or for those of you who want a challenge, but just can't face starting over:

Pummeled So Badly, My ________ Broke:
(Or simply, "Weapon Breakage")
Upon Death, don't die (it's great to be a hero!). Go back to the map, recover, and figure out how you're go to persist now that your _____ has been broken. Assign a unique number from 2 to 12 to each equipment slot on your body, excluding Money Pouch and Backpack. Roll 2d6. The contents of the corresponding equipment slot has been destroyed. Ouch! Hey, at least they didn't take your cash... or did they?(see optional rule: Just Kidding).

So, that's all the ideas I've come up with for now. As I run into mechanics further in the book, I may have to make adjustments. I have to say, after playing in Mature Mode for a few hours last night, I found matters to be a lot more tense and exciting. I was sweating bullets as Wilf the Sexy Wizard was dragged down to 1 health by a huge, acid-spitting Alpha Worm from which he could not manage to escape in the darkness below. One lucky roll, and some help from his lightning ring, was the only reason Wilf was able to return to the surface alive, collect his hard-won coin, and go treat the adoring ladies of the village to a drink and tales of his heroics.

Let me know what you think and feel free to suggest your own mechanics!

~Apocryphim

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